http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ Discussion Forum for Riverside Illinois en Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:32:44 +0000 http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/rbhs-looking-for-a-referendum-possibly-2011/page/6#post-12525 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:20:16 +0000 aperry 12525@http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ <p>Teacher pay is now tied to nothing but how well the teachers' union negotiates and how much of a pushover the school board is. Others will simply say that districts try to pay "market rates" for the best teachers. Either way, the system is not designed to work at all. </p> http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/rbhs-looking-for-a-referendum-possibly-2011/page/6#post-12521 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:39:17 +0000 mrt 12521@http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ <p>aperry said--</p> <blockquote><p>Tie teacher pay increases and benefits to tax revenue.</p> </blockquote> <p>What are teacher pay increases and benefits tied to now?</p> <p>.</p> <p>also, </p> <p>corbi said that teacher comp seems to be going to the other side of the spectrum now. This perception MIGHT be the case here in Riverside but is it the case in Berwyn and Ford Heights? I wonder if one would see those garish 'century plus' salaries there? But what is the same: spending exceeds revenues.</p> <p>Taking a step back from this, I vaguely recall that there is some sort of debate in how Illinois funds public education. Is the debate on whether it is 'equitable' to base public education on the local property values? Is the issue a potential denial of the equal access part of the US constitution? </p> <p>How do other states (ideally, ones without the funding problem that we have in Illlinois) fund public schools?</p> <p>Here are a couple google links on the subject.</p> <p><a href="http://www.progressillinois.com/posts/content/2010/02/18/education-debate-heating" rel="nofollow">http://www.progressillinois.com/posts/content/2010/02/18/education-debate-heating</a><br /> <a href="http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=229384&#38;src=109" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=229384&#38;src=109</a><br /> <a href="http://www.extremewisdom.com/wp-content/uploads/fundamental_execsumm.pdf">here</a> is a proposal that would ,among other things, "Convert every Public School in Illinois into an independent "Charter School" "</p> <p>.</p> <p>Finally, </p> <p>a quick note to on a previous post I made referring to Morton's district being in the 'same bathtub' as riverside. I did not mean to suggest that they were fiscally in the same boat, with our monies tied up with Morton's district. Rather , my points were two: </p> <p>1) While Morton's fiscal problems are theirs, what happens there can affect our community since we are geographically so close to Morton. If a goodly portion of those 4,000 students -- many of whom, as JohnM rightly points out, might be under the poverty line -- are not constructively engaged, there could be an impact in our town (not monies , but in other possible impacts, say, crime, for example) </p> <p>and 2) the problem with school funding seems to be systemic within Illinois vs only for Riverside. </p> http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/rbhs-looking-for-a-referendum-possibly-2011/page/6#post-12520 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:25:38 +0000 CuriousResident 12520@http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ <p>I don't know what "category" it would be defined as, but I align with Corbi296's "we are all in this together" minded comments:</p> <blockquote><p>Like I said before, the financial problems at RB won't be resolved if either side expects the other to resolve the whole problem. I am willing to vote yes to a referendum that increases the operating budget and partially plugs the budget hole, but only if the teachers union is willing to reopen its contract and agrees to a pay freeze for at least 2-3 years. This compromise solution would ensure that no teachers would be laid off and no programs would be cut. Everybody sacrifices a little bit and the kids turn out to be the big winners. That's how it should be. </p></blockquote> http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/rbhs-looking-for-a-referendum-possibly-2011/page/6#post-12519 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:13:22 +0000 aperry 12519@http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ <p>How about this proposal: Tie teacher pay increases and benefits to tax revenue. This way, at least this way districts would have the funds to pay for salary increases. With tax caps, revenue is limited to the CPI or some other factor that is tied to the general economy of the state or area.</p> <p>I know this proposal would need a lot more thought before it could be implemented. As is stands now, however teacher pay does not reflect the overall economy in any way. </p> http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/rbhs-looking-for-a-referendum-possibly-2011/page/6#post-12518 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:42:45 +0000 TS 12518@http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ <p>Put me in the category of opposing and voting NO to any tax referendum next year. The typical solution that every governmental agency in Illinois offers to cover a budget shortage is to raise taxes. This is true from the State to the County to the Village to the School Districts. Continually throwing money at a problem is not the solution. Government needs to run their affairs like we in the private sector run our businesses. Until the government, including the schools, manage their costs effectively, I will never vote for a tax increase. Between the various taxes I pay, I keep just about 40 cents of every dollar I earn. I can't afford any more tax increases. </p> http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/rbhs-looking-for-a-referendum-possibly-2011/page/5#post-12517 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:31:53 +0000 corbi296 12517@http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ <p>I don't think capping salaries is the answer. I think you need to use common sense and just make sure there is balance. I am not opposed to teachers making a lot of money. As a matter of fact, I am a huge proponent of giving teachers more upside in their pay but having it tied to job performance. I am not in favor of huge salaries that are a result solely of seniority and are linked to tenure that effectively provides bullet proof job security. That's why you have department heads making 140k plus and only teaching one or two classes all day. That's also how you have PE teachers making $120 k plus per year. If you want to be paid like you are in the private sector, then you have to willing to have your total compensation and job security tied to job performance. I used to think that teachers on average were underpaid. Somehow I think we are approaching the other end of the spectrum and you just can't maintain the current pace. Like I said before, the financial problems at RB won't be resolved if either side expects the other to resolve the whole problem. I am willing to vote yes to a referendum that increases the operating budget and partially plugs the budget hole, but only if the teachers union is willing to reopen its contract and agrees to a pay freeze for at least 2-3 years. This compromise solution would ensure that no teachers would be laid off and no programs would be cut. Everybody sacrifices a little bit and the kids turn out to be the big winners. That's how it should be. </p> http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/rbhs-looking-for-a-referendum-possibly-2011/page/5#post-12516 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:01:45 +0000 JohnM 12516@http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ <p>Those are good points. I guess my response is what do you do with teacher salaries? Cap them at a certain point? That doesn't seem fair. I agree that teachers, particularly those with experience, should not need to be managed. HOwever, it does seem to me that there does need to be a leadership position within the various departments to ensure that standards are maintained.</p> <p>In my view, the salary issue was created by a Board that failed to engage the Union in real bargaining and instead essentially rolled over to their demands. This was exacerbated by the fact that Baldermann exerted so much control over the Board, and the fact that he never gave much thought to the burden on the taxpayers created by his agenda. </p> http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/rbhs-looking-for-a-referendum-possibly-2011/page/5#post-12514 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:11:36 +0000 corbi296 12514@http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ <p>JohnM,</p> <p>I think the $140k is excessive salary considering the benefits package, the length of the school year, and the amount of classes some of these departments heads are actually teaching. The other salaries seem fair for good teachers who have been doing this for a while. This assumes these expereinced teachers are actually spending most of their time in the classroom. My understanding is that some of these department heads become more teacher supervisors than actual teachers. I have a big problem with this system. First, I want the most experienced teachers in the classroom teaching our kids. Secondly, I just don't think we should have teachers at RB who need "supervision". With an average teacher salary of $86,000 K, I just don't think any of these teachers should need supervision. Maybe it's just me beause I have this same philosophy in my line of work. I don't hire anybody who needs to be "managed". </p> http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/rbhs-looking-for-a-referendum-possibly-2011/page/5#post-12512 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:13:08 +0000 CuriousResident 12512@http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ <p>Anon said<br /> <blockquote>I'm sure we all know teachers who aren't but can't be fired due to tenure. Who are getting paid massive amounts of money just because they have been there for many years. Take a look at <a href="http://www.familytaxpayers.org/salary.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.familytaxpayers.org/salary.php</a> for proof. <strong>This is a good opportunity to weed them out,</strong> or at least it should be.</p></blockquote> <p>I'm confused by the combining "can't be fired" in the same paragraph as "good opportunity to weed them out".</p> <p>This is a problem brought up a while back as being a problem we can't solve in the short term. Tenure law requires dismissals from RIF be reverse seniority (leaving any higher priced C- teachers in their position) and dismissals for performance are currently very rare (you can find articles pointing to the cost of the due process that is contracted as a deterrent for even trying). </p> <p>JohnM said<br /> <blockquote>I am interested in finding out if there's any consensus about teacher pay. </p></blockquote> <p>I suspect you will not find anything near a consensus. Peoples' respect of teachers and education is wide ranging. The people that support "high salaries" are not likely to be vocal. The only consensus your likely to find is that 6figure salaries garner cynicism (regardless of the job in question, public or private sector). Add to that the financial stress a lot of people are under today with the strangely common view of teachers having an unbelievably fortunate arrangement (<em>9 months of work per year, with 3 weeks off in the middle of the school year, plus every federal holiday off, plus 10 - 15 sick days which can be banked and given back in cash when they retire</em>) and the negative sentiments flow...making them seem like the only sentiment. </p> http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/rbhs-looking-for-a-referendum-possibly-2011/page/5#post-12511 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:52:40 +0000 JohnM 12511@http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/ <p>I graduated from RB in 1985. Based on my review of the list on one of the web sites identified above, there are at least 4 teachers who were there when I was there who are still full-time teachers of academic subjects (that is, not dance or PE). They make $140 K (for a Department head), $114k (2 of them) and $111K. I had three of them for classes, and remember them as being excellent teachers. Am I alone in thinking their compensation is not out of line for a highly-credentialed teacher with over 30 years of experience? If I am, how much do you think they should be making? 100K? 60K, 40K?</p> <p>I'm not saying salaries aren't an issue, and I think the teachers union should agree to a pay reduction and salary freeze to save jobs. I am interested in finding out if there's any consensus about teacher pay. </p>