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Free Cultivars

(50 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by HABIV
  • Latest reply from CuriousResident
  1. JohnM
    Member

    Kim,

    I read that document and I referenced that section of it in my post. My questions, though, still stand:

    1) Where may I find the official approved list of trees?

    2) Are cultivars prohibited in the parkways or parks or on any publicly-owned land?

    I also want to point out that the Mr. Campbell donated this money this money during the previous 2 years as well and it was accepted. In fact, here's where it was discussed on this forum--and you might be surprised about who thought it was a great idea-- http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/resident-gives-5k-to-riverside-through-lac-to-plant-diverse-trees

    There is a link in this post to the Landmark article about the donation. The article clearly states that this is an experimental program that is designed to explore diversifying the Village's tree stock. I really don't see why this has become an issue now, and why the Village--during these difficult economic times--is turning down a program that 1)is free, 2) seems to be working and 3) was approved by past and current LACs.

    Catherine,

    You said that former and present heads of the Olmsted society, and certain other residents, actually do know more about trees than any of our employees. Do you really believe this? Do you think that they know more about trees than our forester? Really?

    Posted Tuesday Aug 25, 2009 17:34 #
  2. Catherine
    Member

    Yes, I thought it was a great gesture, but I did not realize cultivars were solicited or planted. I did not read it in the tabloid, but heard about it in passing at Town Hall and pasted that for reference. I still think it's a great gesture. Diversity is needed to thwart present and future diseases. Spatny has also made generous donations and I think that is great. I just don't find the cultivar part great until and unless it is absolutely necessary. I know spatny also does not agree with me on that particular.

    The list is on the village website. You can see there are dozens of trees to choose from without going into cultivars. That board accepted it, this one didn't. Cultivars have been planted. If that's the experiment that anyone is longing for, it's there. Wait and see how it turns out. In the meantime, what's the problem with the shagbark hickory? That's some diversity we could sure use.

    Yes, really. And I think if you ask our forester he will agree there are people in town who know more about trees than he does. I have never known him to have a problem with being appropriately humble or admitting any limitations. Do you think you know more about your profession than anyone in this town? Do you think our village attorney is better than any attorney in this town? Please. As I said, my sister is a government forester, a certified arborist of many years standing, and she will tell you there are people in this town who know more about trees than she does. And there are people who know more about "the history", "the plan" "the NHL" by a long shot. But you are just moving the goalposts to avoid admitting error, I think.

    DPW Forestry sent me the list when I was planting on private property prior to these donations. Even I wouldn't have gone against it. Why would I?

    Posted Tuesday Aug 25, 2009 18:06 #
  3. KimJ
    Member

    John,

    Call them "experimental" if you want, but how does that justify the village placing trees in parkways that they advise be avoided, free or not.

    Back to where I began, either the LAC approves of cultivars, or they don't.

    We have tasked the LAC to recommend planting materials that would be consistent with Olmsted principles. If they deem it appropriate to include cultivars, then they should change the section of THEIR document that states, twice, "Avoid Cultivars."

    How the LAC has voted in favor of shirking their own document 3 years in a row, I don't know. If the LAC cannot be guided by their own principles and documents, how can they expect the rest of us to be guided by them?

    From the document, again... and No. 6 under General Suggestions.

    4. What to Consider When Landscaping Your Property

    4.1. General Suggestions

    - Know your property lines!
    - Consider native species that are appropriate to your sun exposure, drainage and soil type. If you are determined to plant a non-native plant, make sure it is non-invasive and not on the Village list of forbidden plants.
    - Plant a variety of species instead of a monoculture - it will help control disease.
    - Group plants of various sizes to achieve a layered effect: canopy trees and understory trees and shrubs.
    - Use the same species that are already growing in neighboring parks, parkways and yards so that your additions continue to complement the landscape rather than create a contrasting, striking view.
    - Avoid cultivars.
    - Mulch.
    - Improve your soil.

    I must dismount now, as this horse is truly dead.

    Posted Tuesday Aug 25, 2009 18:10 #
  4. JohnM
    Member

    Catherine,

    Comparing a village attorney to a forester is apples and oranges (or American Elms to Accolade Elms, if you prefer). I would sincerely doubt that anyone who is not a professional forester would have a greater breadth of knowledge than a pro. Fortunately, we can test your theory--the result won't be dispositive but will be interesting. Kim, you are the current president of the FLOS--do you, as Catherine stated, know more about trees than Mr. Collins?

    Kim,

    I get your point, but I have yet to see a document that lists the approved trees and/or specifically prohibits cultivars. Is the list in the document you reference the approved list?

    Posted Tuesday Aug 25, 2009 18:21 #
  5. commonsense
    Member

    Catherine, if you liked the idea then, why did you change your mind now?

    Posted Tuesday Aug 25, 2009 20:08 #
  6. commonsense
    Member

    Spatny wrote this two years ago:

    Catherine - Mike Collins is really up on all the species stuff. There are a number of tree problems beyond Dutch Elm. The Emerald Ash Borer is coming - already over to Skokie, and we have 700 Ash trees at risk just on public land. They were planted to replace the elms. Species diversity - among appropriate species - is good. Also, we need to plant more trees all over town of various species so that we don't have them all the same size and age. Widening the choices is a good way to protect us from all these varmints that destroy trees. At the LAC every single planting on the public land is looked at, discussed, approved or a substitute suggested - they do it very seriously and conscientiously. I think it is the best commission in the village.

    I'll admit, I think he was right.

    http://www.riversideinfo.org/forum/topic/what-would-you-do-with-50000/page/2

    Posted Tuesday Aug 25, 2009 20:39 #
  7. Catherine
    Member

    Donation is a good idea. Cultivars are not, in my view, unless natives have been exhausted. Which part of that don't you understand?

    Kim has left the building. But I doubt anyone would wish to say such a thing about him or herself. Really, are you serious? The principle is the same, whether apples or oranges. I have no problem with the forester, nor do I think he regards himself as a know it all in his field. I include Kim out of a desire not to imply I think one Olmsted head knows less or more than another, not to drag her into this stirring pot of nonsense. There is a great deal to know about trees. A tree surgeon is a different skill set from a forester, or an arborist. Knowledge of Olmsted is yet another skill set.

    When Spatny wrote that, I may well have agreed with him about the LAC. You take my point.

    Let me conclude by pointing out that a trustee made the very sensible suggestion that the conversation about the hybrids be tabled so that further discussion could be had with the potential donor. He declined this offer and requested an up or down vote right there, or he would agree to plant diverse natives if he had a commitment from the board that night to also buy and plant trees (additional to the matching program) since he had now learned that many native species had not been planted for some considerable time, (save somewhat on the parkways.) So there was no opportunity to discuss further, nor could they vote to spend on such notice. (Although that would have thrilled me.) I don't think this conversation here is furthering the cause, in any event.

    Posted Tuesday Aug 25, 2009 21:06 #
  8. JohnM
    Member

    Catherine,

    My point about apples and oranges is that forestry, unlike other undertakings, is a very specialized occupation. I would be extremely surprised if anyone in town has the same knowledge and skill set as Mr. Collins.

    With regard to my question to Kim, why wouldn't she answer it? If someone were to go on a public site like this and make claims about me, I'd certainly want to chime in, if only to ask them to stop making such claims.

    And just as you reiterated your point about cultivars vs. natives, let me reiterate mine. We have a generous donation that was approved by the LAC, was implemented with success by our forester, and cost the village nothing. I'm all for maintaining the FLO landscape, I like the idea of using as many native species as possible and I think spending on our tree stock is one of the best uses of my tax dollars. However, I simply fail to see how planting a few Accolade elms at diverse sites around town threatens the FLO vision or our NHL status.

    Posted Tuesday Aug 25, 2009 21:40 #
  9. Catherine
    Member

    John, see my edit. I think mishandling of the situation turned it into a cultivar/native dispute that did not need to be had.

    We already have a more than a few Accolade elms at places around town. That was not the essence of what the gentleman wanted to accomplish. As he stated, his concern was species diversity, period, and that he was not wed to cultivars.

    Posted Tuesday Aug 25, 2009 21:45 #
  10. Tim
    Member

    This discussion is quite interesting (personal jabs notwithstanding) and it begs a close look at the history and reality of what we are discussing.

    To begin with, we must accept that for all its beauty, the Riverside landscape, as created by Olmsted, is artificial. Man made. Riverside was created to provide a habitable alternative to overcrowded, dirty and unhealthy urban living. A pastoral escape in the face of rapid and uncontrolled growth of our city.

    To his credit, Olmsted composed a landscape using several techniques that would become the foundation of landscape architecture. The conjoining of rail-line and water-way only complements his genius and understanding of both the civic and cultural needs of his generation.

    Olmsted often utilized natural elements to minimize the presence of humans in the environment. Techniques he utilized included a unique lowered, unpaved roadway (to create the sense of unbroken greenspace and facilitate adequate drainage in a wetland), distant setbacks for residences and mandated planting of trees in both the public and private lands. These recommendations can be found in Olmsted's own writings at the Riverside Public Library. Understanding human's constant need to control the environment, the Riverside Improvement Company had many of these environmental guidelines put into documents during the creation of our suburb. A Plan to follow to achieve the desired goal.

    As for the trees, Olmsted (a naturalist) held one key requisite for the landscaping of Riverside which included the diverse plantings of native species of varying height (the listing of such plants and the LAC document is contained here: http://www.olmstedsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/landscaping-in-a-landmark-village.pdf)

    This document arises from Olmsted & Vaux & Company's "Preliminary Report upon the Proposed Suburban Village of Riverside" (1868 ), "General Plan for Riverside" (1869) and "The Papers of Frederick Law Olmsted, Vol. 6 (Balitmore 1992). This was also summarized by Edward Straka in "The RIverside Landscape" August 31, 1981. These items are for review at the Riverside Public Library.

    Together, these elements of the Riverside design are what make the community unique and worthy of designation as a National Historic Landmark.

    To live in an NHL brings with it a certain level of responsibility. To live here is to dwell on a small page of history, one which our National Parks Service feels is worthy of being perpetuated. History which is scattered across our country, from Central Park to Yosemite, everywhere Olmsted left his imprint on the way we live and relate to nature. History which can be shared and passed along from one generation to the next.

    Over time, Riverside has elected to change its own history. Pave and raise the streets, re-zone setbacks, put in electric lamps, build taller buildings. Each individual act, perhaps done for convenience, perhaps for money reasons, slowly erodes the general plan. Each individual event may have only a small effect, but compounded results leave a more dramatic change. (For some reason, I get this image of Michael Jackson and plastic surgery. He was still Michael Jackson, albeit some strange contortion of the man he would have grown to be otherwise).

    For me this of issue of the cultivar becomes philosophical and begs many questions:

    Should we preserve a landscape ideal?
    Should we perpetuate our local heritage?
    Should we adhere to guidelines for planting which patterns our ecological history?
    Should we, as individuals, be willing to make donations of trees within those guidelines?
    Should we abandon natural mechanisms for reforestation and fighting pestilence (fires/natural selection) for man-made cultivars?

    To me, the underlying question is one of stewardship versus economizing.

    Certainly not an uncomplicated topic to discuss.

    Posted Wednesday Aug 26, 2009 10:04 #

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