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Leading, trailing indicators and the Dead Cat Bounce...

(18 posts)
  1. spatny
    Member

    Before you think it's over, look at Steglitz, Roubini, Krugman, et. al. They were right before...

    Stiglitz Says Banking Problems Are Now Bigger Than Pre-Lehman

    By Mark Deen and David Tweed

    Sept. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel Prize- winning economist, said the U.S. has failed to fix the underlying problems of its banking system after the credit crunch and the collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.

    “In the U.S. and many other countries, the too-big-to-fail banks have become even bigger,” Stiglitz said in an interview today in Paris. “The problems are worse than they were in 2007 before the crisis.”

    Stiglitz’s views echo those of former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker, who has advised President Barack Obama’s administration to curtail the size of banks, and Bank of Israel Governor Stanley Fischer, who suggested last month that governments may want to discourage financial institutions from growing “excessively.”

    A year after the demise of Lehman forced the Treasury Department to spend billions to shore up the financial system, Bank of America Corp.’s assets have grown and Citigroup Inc. remains intact. In the U.K., Lloyds Banking Group Plc, 43 percent owned by the government, has taken over the activities of HBOS Plc, and in France BNP Paribas SA now owns the Belgian and Luxembourg banking assets of insurer Fortis.

    While Obama wants to name some banks as “systemically important” and subject them to stricter oversight, his plan wouldn’t force them to shrink or simplify their structure.

    Stiglitz said the U.S. government is wary of challenging the financial industry because it is politically difficult, and that he hopes the Group of 20 leaders will cajole the U.S. into tougher action.

    G-20 Steps

    “We aren’t doing anything significant so far, and the banks are pushing back,” he said. “The leaders of the G-20 will make some small steps forward, given the power of the banks” and “any step forward is a move in the right direction.”

    G-20 leaders gather next week in Pittsburgh and will consider ways of improving regulation of financial markets and in particular how to set tighter limits on remuneration for market operators. Under pressure from France and Germany, G-20 finance ministers last week reached a preliminary accord that included proposals to claw-back cash awards and linking compensation more closely to long-term performance.

    “It’s an outrage,” especially “in the U.S. where we poured so much money into the banks,” Stiglitz said. “The administration seems very reluctant to do what is necessary. Yes they’ll do something, the question is: Will they do as much as required?”

    Global Economy

    Stiglitz, former chief economist at the World Bank and member of the White House Council of Economic Advisers, said the world economy is “far from being out of the woods” even if it has pulled back from the precipice it teetered on after the collapse of Lehman.

    “We’re going into an extended period of weak economy, of economic malaise,” Stiglitz said. The U.S. will “grow but not enough to offset the increase in the population,” he said, adding that “if workers do not have income, it’s very hard to see how the U.S. will generate the demand that the world economy needs.”

    The Federal Reserve faces a “quandary” in ending its monetary stimulus programs because doing so may drive up the cost of borrowing for the U.S. government, he said.

    “The question then is who is going to finance the U.S. government,” Stiglitz said.

    It is eventualities like these that create the incentive to husband resources...

    Krugman warns against economic complacency
    ‘Double dip’ a real risk, exit strategy should wait till 2011
    October 15, 2009

    Paul Krugman

    The pace of Korea’s economic recovery, like those observed in many other countries, has been exaggerated, according to renowned economist Paul Krugman yesterday.

    During a forum held in Seoul, Krugman, the 2008 Nobel Economics laureate and a professor at Princeton University, attributed the current rebound in the global economy to companies quickly selling the inventory accumulated during the worst of the crisis. Thus, government efforts to boost the economy should continue, he said.

    “The bounce back should not be taken as an indication of continuing growth in manufacturing exports,” Krugman said while addressing the World Knowledge Forum hosted by Maeil Business News. “It’s too early to say Korea has [achieved] a rapid recovery because world demand, which drives the Korean recovery, will not be sustained,” he said.

    The Korean economy grew 2.6 percent in the second quarter, its fastest growth in five and a half years, with industrial output rising for the second straight month in August from a year earlier. Yesterday, the National Statistical Office released improved employment data, marking the second consecutive on-year job increase.

    However, Krugman said much of the recovery was not attributable to a rebound in global demand, which he said is still in the doldrums.

    A second recession, the dreaded “double dip,” could hit the global economy next year, and on a more serious scale than expected, the economist warned.

    That was the reason Krugman warned against quickly ending current expansionary policies. The global economy will take years to fully recover and putting the brakes on the stimulus too early could bring about disastrous results, he said.

    “[It’s] alarming the large rising tide of people saying we’ve done enough, [that it’s] time to pursue an exit strategy,” he said.

    Krugman said the implementation of an exit strategy should be delayed until unemployment in the United States falls to 7 percent, which he said will come in 2011 at the earliest.

    In Krugman’s previous visit to Korea in May for a speech at a global financial conference, he said the lingering problems facing the American economy also hung over the entire world, and that the savings rate and housing and business investment, the three pillars of the real economy, would not fully recover in the United States for years to come.

    The Nobel laureate then said the ongoing crisis, which at that time he called the worst since the Great Depression by far, will end probably in 2014.

    That's five years from now! Think about it. Today the State of Illinois went $900 million further into the red, almost $13 billion now. Who will finance them?

    Posted Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 20:00 #
  2. TonyM
    Member

    Don - for a second there you had me worried. When you referenced the "dead cat bounce", I thought something had happened to Stevie, the terrified kitten, that Kim wrote about a couple months back. After reading the first chapter of your post, I realized that it was just another one of your diatribes of the world coming to an end. Run for the cave.

    Just kidding about Stevie - I hope he is well

    Posted Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 21:01 #
  3. PAR4
    Member

    I've always said if I had to do it all over again I would be an economist or a weatherman. Two occupations where you can be wrong 100% of the time and still sound right enough to make a lot of money.

    Some interesting points in there, and all very plausible in a worst case scenario. Let's hope it doesn't happen.

    Posted Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 21:31 #
  4. spatny
    Member

    Tony - it is not mydiatibe, it is the wise council of people who have won Nobel prizes or assembled great wealth and then given massive amounts to help make things better - like Soros who funded the Open Societies Universities and has just announcewd the investment of a billion dollars in clean energy initiatives. Going back years these guys have been right about what was happening, but in your simplistic way you choose to ignore them and try to paint me as a harbinger of doom. If their projections are right, we will really need to reduce our expenditures right now and keep them low in order to get through this in a solvent condition. Of course that won't agree with people like you and Ben, but it will be necessary. This is not, by far, the worst case scenario. That is closer to what Soros predicts, that is, that the economy as we knew it is never coming back. Better look at both sides of the coin...

    Posted Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 22:18 #
  5. spatny
    Member

    FRom FBN yesterday...

    (Courtesy of FBN: A transcript of FOX Business Network’s Brian Sullivan exclusive interview with economist Nouriel Roubini:
    Nouriel Roubini: We are at the point in which the housing market is bottoming out in terms of quantities because they’ve fallen so much, 80% from the peak, but the glut of new and existing homes is still so large and is a overhang on the market, but I expect prices are going to fall over the next year another 7-10%.
    FBN anchor Brian Sullivan: Is that nationwide the 7-10% drop? Are there select markets that might increase?
    Roubini: Some markets might increase, like Boston or Denver where things are improving, but if you are looking for the average of these 20 metropolitan areas, there’s still a huge glut of supply, demand is still weak, all the inventory of foreclosed homes when the moratorium of foreclosures ending, therefore the down side price adjustment give an excess supply and weak demand across the nation.
    Sullivan: Prices are down, interest rates are low and we have the first time home buyers tax credit of $8,000—why hasn’t that helped the market more? If you’re still seeing price declines, why aren’t we seeing price gains with all the stimulus that’s been thrown at us?
    Roubini: Well, we’ve seen two or three months of prices rising, but that might be a seasonal factor and is the first time home buyers tax credit—you’re stealing dealing however from the future, and that’s going to expire December 1st then demand like for the case of Cash for Clunkers, they are going to fall again unless we extend it. The problem is that the unemployment rate is close to 10%, people are worried about jobs, and buying a home is the biggest thing you do in your life, and a situation in which you are uncertain about your income, about your jobs, you’re going to postpone buying homes.
    Sullivan: So possibly another leg down next year?
    Roubini: Absolutely. Between the reduction in the elimination of the tax credit and the excess inventory of foreclosed homes going to come to the market, I still see prices fall another 7-10%.
    Sullivan: Where are we in the economic cycle, what should the Federal Reserve be doing?
    Roubini: We are closer to the bottom of this recession, so there’s going to be a recovery, but in my view this recovery is going to be anemic… you have to save more, spend less. You have the housing market is weak, there is a glut of capacity in the corporate sector… there’s not going to be much cut back spending. The financial system is damaged—not much credit growth. There’s a large fiscal deficit, eventually going to cause trouble. So the Fed is going to stay on hold and should stay on hold because the recovery is going to be anemic sub-par below trend U-shaped rather then V-shaped.
    Sullivan: Will they stay on hold all through next year?
    Roubini: In my view, yes. Last time around, they stayed on hold for almost three years, even after the recession was over. This time around, the recession is twice as big, unemployment is peaking at 10%, not at 6.4%, therefore the Fed is going to stay on hold throughout next year.)

    Posted Friday Oct 16, 2009 16:47 #
  6. spatny
    Member

    Latest spiel on commercial and office vacancies is negative. So I can't see who would venture to put a new business in anytime soon. It will take two years of 5% growth just to get unemployment back to around 7%. That tells me that both unemployment and the number of foreclosures - when the banks start disclosing them - will be even higher. This probably translates to a very high percentage of the people that bought homes in the last five years being upside down or pretty close to negative in their equity. So higher taxes can and will be a deterrent to new buyers coming in, and those already here staying afloat.

    Posted Friday Oct 16, 2009 20:35 #
  7. spatny
    Member

    Evidently most people think this way...

    (U.S. Consumers: Confidence Still Faltering
    Print
    The University of Michigan preliminary index of consumer sentiment fell to 69.4 in October 2009 from 73.5 in September.

    The preliminary measure of current conditions fell to 71.2 in October from 73.4 in September, while the expectations component fell to 67.6 in October from 73.5 in September. One year ahead inflation expectations rose to 2.8% in October from 2.2% in September. Apart from an improvement in consumer sentiment in September, the consumer sentiment index has been on a downward trend since June 2009. (Reuters/University of Michigan Surveys of Consumers; 10/16/09)

    Reuters/University of Michigan Surveys of Consumers Report: "While consumers still anticipated gains in the general economy and now think that the unemployment rate is close to its cyclical peak, there has been no improvement in consumers' dismal assessments of their personal financial situation...Indeed, personal finances have undergone the longest and deepest decline in the 60-year history of the surveys, and few consumers expect their finances to improve anytime soon." (via Reuters 10/16/09)
    After declining incomes, negative returns from stock markets and falling home prices eroded household wealth and confidence through 2008, U.S. consumer confidence gauges steadied by mid-2009. However, confidence indicators began showing waning optimism since June.

    Despite the stabilization in the economy, consumer sentiment regarding current conditions remains at low levels as consumers are still highly leveraged and remain pressurized by high job losses, a rebound in gas prices and tight credit conditions.)

    Posted Saturday Oct 17, 2009 10:24 #
  8. JohnM
    Member

    Don said:

    Latest spiel on commercial and office vacancies is negative. So I can't see who would venture to put a new business in anytime soon.

    There's a new CVS and a car wash going in on 22nd street in North Riverside. Obviously, that's a different kettle of fish than our little commercial strip, but it does suggest you may be a little bit off base.

    Posted Saturday Oct 17, 2009 10:34 #
  9. spatny
    Member

    Those are large chains that purchase property all over the country and slug it out for market share. The car wash firm is from Cincy, I think, and also manufactures their own equipment. Three major "drug stores" if you can call them that within a couple blocks of each other - I fail to see any correlation between that and what I quoted above. Small mom& pop businesses like restaurants, etc., are folding everywhere and there are historically very high percentages of vacancies for office space - so I think the fallacy that people are going to come in and invest what it takes to build out space and then pay much higher rents than we had here before is just a pipe dream. Typically a restaurant needs 2.5 turns on the tables to make money, and with less disposable income around that is falling off. We got sucked into the "if you build it they will come" line and incentivized construction and look where it got us. The traffic and support for retail is very iffy and dropping - generally - and we are likely to see more folks around here in trouble before the air clears. I just post this as a warning - even if it goes against the cheerleaders and "green chutes" viewpoint in the hopes that perhaps some will consider it and save themselves a world of hurt. Our CBD went down considerably between 2004 and the present and that condition is probably not yet at bottom.

    Posted Saturday Oct 17, 2009 13:18 #
  10. PAR4
    Member

    Granted those economist opinions above are not the best news for our CBD going forward, but you also have to consider that there are a significant number of people who ARE looking to take advantage of the lower prices and purchase a home - whether it's a foreclosure or one that is 40% cheaper than 3 years ago, it's a deal.

    That said, what factors are they weighing on where to purchase? I would think, on a home priced relatively equal between here and any other neighboring suburb, things like schools, community, fiscal health of the town and availablity of recreation are all pretty high on the list. We obviously have an advantage with the first two, but crash and burn on the next two if we continue on this path without raising taxes.

    Do you really think someone buying a 400K+ home would not buy here if taxes were $50 - 70 higher per month? I guarantee you they'd run if told the village is on the verge of bankruptcy and has no recreation program. Granted, we can't spend money foolishly, but we need additional revenue to survive and we need creative ways to keep our village appealing to potential buyers/business owners - they ARE out there and it will only be more imperative as the economy does recover.

    Posted Saturday Oct 17, 2009 14:20 #

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