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Workshop FOUR - Round One

(42 posts)
  1. CuriousResident
    Member

    Elisa,

    I lean against the Tif, but am trying to stay objective(enough to not get caught up in principle), but I'm wondering if there may be an ommision in your calculation. It would reduce the numbers above to jive with the numbers the Pro-Tif folk are presenting.

    It is with regard to the 54% calculation. It looks like you are carrying the total realized by the new property taxes to benefit the schools 100%, but I believe that the schools only get a small piece of that total.

    I can't find the number (2.75%???), but it was in the thread that included info about the last School referenda. That would reduce the 4mil down to $110k total, and $5k per year. With the home run numbers (10mil), it would be $275k total (divided by 23) which is around $12k per year.

    I may be off base, but if this is the reality, it may not hurt the schools significantly.

    Hmm...can anyone comfirm or refute this?

    Posted Monday Feb 26, 2007 17:26 #
  2. Elisa
    Member

    CuriousResident - I am with you: I am leaning against, but I want to be informed so that I can make the best decision. I didn't think that I was using the entire property tax in my calculation. I did mention that to show where I took the 54%. If the total new tax was $10,000 per condo (at $500,000), then only 54% of that would be thrown the school's way - which is $5,400 per unit. Multiply that by 50 units, which is where I got the $270,000 per year. That is the straight 54% that is set aside for the schools. Are you talking about the percentage that is taken for a referendum? I don't know - I thought that extra tax was above and beyond the 54%. I didn't include any referenda taxes in my calculations. I really don't know - I am not a mathematician!

    edit: Oh, and because there are not any condos there, when the TIF is in place and the assessments are frozen, I also am going off of the assumption that any new condo development (where there is now none) is all new tax. So all of the new property taxes that are generated because there is no residential now (where these hypothetical condos will be built) will all go in to the TIF fund. Corbi said he was looking into seeing if this assumption is correct - and he is still working on the answer.

    Posted Monday Feb 26, 2007 17:41 #
  3. MikeSedivy
    Member

    Elisa - I re-read my post and probably wasn't being completely fair. Your 50 units got us $4MM. Most likely another 50 units would bring in less due to timing but say $4MM again. Then we have $50K a year in inflationary growth and still have almost $1MM leftover to get to the $10MM of "lost revenue". Instead of using 4 VC's as an example. Let's assume (for financial purposes only) 100 units is equivalent to 4 VC's without the 4th floor and with parking on the ground floor. I believe this is the level of "naturally occuring development" that would have to occur to get to $10MM of lost revenue for the schools.

    Posted Monday Feb 26, 2007 18:16 #
  4. MikeT
    Member

    great to keep vetting the numbers; but quick reminder:

    I believe this is less about the numbers working real well for the admin and more about the Administration to have a ready source of cash to do with as they see fit, and about which they do not have to go asking the electorate (as they had to do with the tunnel). the electorate complicates the process of getting money. there might be a controversial item such as a parking deck, or infrastructure for high density residential development that they might vote down.

    but if the numbers do not work for the ones proposing this initiative, it DOES break the proposal.

    But even if they could prove the numbers work, I believe that the ultra flexibility that gives too much money to ones with questionable judgement knocks this proposal down, among other reasons.

    Since they are proposing this 'creative ' solution, they have the burden to prove it sufficiently.

    Posted Monday Feb 26, 2007 19:11 #
  5. spatny
    Member

    Mike S - And that would fit right in the south side of Pine, right across from the Parking structure, where the "Western" version of the tunnel could be built "at a substantial saving." I believe they are looking at a house there right now. You could pack in a couple hundred "commuter apartments" in 3-4 storeys or a bunch of row houses as at Delaplaine Crossing from the Fire Station to West Ave that would look south across the tracks at Bloomingbank. Then Riverside garage property would become a prime target for "Something on the Plaza". What do you think. Is this disinformation or misdirection. Magicians use both.

    Posted Monday Feb 26, 2007 21:56 #
  6. Tim
    Member

    Keep on playing the game. The key is in the 'but for'.

    To accept the 'but for' is to accept that there would be no growth above CPI without the TIF. If you believe the "but for" then you can argue that any growth above the CPI is directly attributable to the TIF and cannot therefore hurt the schools.

    You might then ask.

    But our proposed TIF district has seen EAV growth of over 9% for the last 5 years how can that meet the 'but for'?

    Or you might ask.

    They built the VC and someone bought the arcade...how does that meet the 'but for'?

    The answer to that lies in who determines whether or not we meet the 'but for'...

    FOUR votes of SEVEN. Your friendly neighborhood Village Trustees.

    If the Village TRUSTEES vote for the TIF, they are establishing the 'but for'.

    If the Village TRUSTEES vote for the TIF, they are saying that, "but for the TIF, this proposed TIF District that has grown at 9% in EAV over the last 5 years, that had to exclude the VC (because it was a new development), that includes the recent purchase of the Arcade, would not have seen significat growth...but for the TIF"

    Oh yes. There would then be the JOINT REVIEW. If the Village is successful at inducing the schools to take less than what they would have otherwise gotten without the TIF...then the TIF goes through.

    The better question to ask is this,

    "Assuming we do not adopt the TIF, how much tax revenue would the schools receive from the "proposed TIF district" if EAV grew at X% over 23 years, assuming the schools continue to capture 60% of our property taxes?"

    This is how much the schools would have gotten without the TIF.

    Posted Monday Feb 26, 2007 22:08 #
  7. MikeT
    Member

    tim said--
    The answer to that lies in who determines whether or not we meet the 'but for'...

    The other answer is the courts. The Board proposes, the court disposes.

    Posted Monday Feb 26, 2007 22:59 #
  8. MikeSedivy
    Member

    Mr. Spatny - I was not suggesting I support the construction of 4 VC-like structures. It was merely meant to highlight the amount of "naturally occurring development" necessary to justify the TIF costing the schools $10MM as put forth by CCR.

    As far as "But For" 1) "But For" variances and parking agreements the VC would not be being built and 2) How does the acquisition of the Arcade Building impact the "But For" test?

    Posted Tuesday Feb 27, 2007 09:52 #
  9. spatny
    Member

    Mike - I don't know why that question is addressed to me, but I'll tell you what I truly believe based on attending all the meetings at the time the VC was being projected. The developers were locked into the property. They had tried at least one - possibly two - earlier projects which did not pass. They absolutely needed the alley or they couldn't build the entire site. They told the Board that if they couldn't build the size they wanted they would sit on it and use it as their office. I fail to see how a builder/developer office would have been worse to have there than a drugstore. They should have been told to go back and develop a proposal for something within the recently developed code. They weren't going anywhere, because the property, under those conditions, would have had the same value to anyone else so would not have been profitable to sell. Instead, they put the newspapers back in the windows and brought in this monster, and the Board fell for it, allowed them to build without providing the required parking, add an extra floor, and bring in this monster. Then they sold them the parking buyout they needed for $5K per space - far less than it will cost to provide, and topped it by selling them the alley for $15,000. Now we have an ugly, overbulk and over height structure to tolerate with insufficient parking that is precedent setting in exactly the wrong way. They didn't give up the variance, the cheap parking buyout and the alley at cut-rate prices to get an architectural masterpiece, they went for the bulk and the dollars in taxes they envision from those 22 units. And we get this crap to look at forever.

    If they had said no, not given the four story variance even before the developers had acquired the Chmell property, then the Village could have leveraged a decent development. That's why so many people feel this Board is development at any price, for we could hardly find a higher price in terms of spoiling the aesthetics of the Village than this garbage. They're so blinded by using the CBD as a cash cow to save their fiscal bacon that they will do anything.

    Witness the Arcade fiasco. They had a deal - nine condos and a RESTORATION - first class we were told. But they had to go for the TIF, and so the developer said, let's get some of that. And now it's no more condos but a wish list of $1.4 mil or thereabouts in Village largess. These aren't the only two developers in the world, they didn't have to bite for anything less than the best. So why would anyone believe them when they come forward with this TIF. "Give us the money and we'll do the right thing." That doesn't fly with their track record. You've already got a guy talking about four buildings larger than the VC for the south face of Burlington. Within code, he says. Underground parking for the public and the residents. What are the chances these people would resist that kind of megabuck deal? You can't show any evidence of them either upholding the code they paid a mint to develop or working a deal that is good for the Village - not just the Village finances. I can show you a terrible, oversize, non-conforming building and a botched deal on the south side of the tracks. Believe me, somewhere, there is something else happening that has as yet not surfaced. I can't put my fingers (pardon the pun) on it yet, but it will surface. Hopefully, not after this thing floats.

    Regarding the schools: Taking anything from them is ludicrous if the intent is to give them back the money, maybe a little less and maybe a little more, somewhere down the road, at the cost of destroying the quiet ambiance of the Village. Where do the cars go that exit the VC onto Longcommon? Down to the school or Akenside, around the triangle, then back across the tracks? What about the parked cars shown reversed into both sides of East Ave., coming right out into the Forest/Longcommon intersection? How do they go west? Piling a parking structure on Pine will be disastrous, and another 50-100 units will just compound the problem without bringing any advantage - except tax dollars. This isn't Las Vegas - the Board should not gamble with the character of our little Village just for the bucks they so desperately want to play with. That's my view.

    Posted Tuesday Feb 27, 2007 11:11 #
  10. MikeSedivy
    Member

    Mr. Spatny - I was only addressing the first part to you regarding the residential development you responded to. If there is something else happenning here that I don't know about either, I will pledge to turn over all of my personal enrichment to your bocce ball concept.

    Posted Tuesday Feb 27, 2007 11:39 #

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